RDF/RSS Feed
Atom Feed
Brilliance, who are working on the new Paksworld audiobooks, sent me a list of words for help with pronunciation. And then another list. Remembering that some time back we had a discussion here (more than one, maybe?) on pronunciation of words from Paksworld, and other questions I’ve had, I set to work on them. And kept the list and my attempts at making pronunciation easier on files for myself. The list has about 140 words/names on it, but they’re not in alphabetical order (in order of appearance in the text, apparently) and I think there are some duplicates. Also, it’s not complete, if you go back to the first books: there are names and places and words that aren’t included.
You see where I’m going, I’ll bet.
I think this would be useful material to add to the information on the Paksworld website. But I don’t have time to deal with it. I don’t know if any of you have time to deal with it, either, but if one or more would like to start work on a pronunciation guide for the website, using the list as a base and at least getting the two lists into alphabetical order and redundancies corrected…I’d be very grateful and you would certainly get your name(s) on that section of the site.
The way I’ve done it is to make the most stressed syllable ALL CAPS, any secondary stresses as initial capital, then lower case, with a dash between syllables. There’s some explanatory material for some words where I felt it necessary (with the variety of “short /a/” sounds, it’s necessary to specify, or I think it is.) Although I learned something about the IPA in linguistics forty-odd years ago, I don’t remember much and don’t have a list of the symbols to refer to. So I’ve taken the spelling route. This leads to things like “Fin Panir fin-pan-EER”. If someone has a suggestion for better handling of the trickier stuff, let’s hear it.
Let me know if anyone’s interested in this. You can also suggest words to me to be “treated” for pronunciation, and I could send them on to someone doing the hard work of alphabetizing and making it all one neat file that my web-guru can then insert in the site.
Comment by Jennifer — March 20, 2013 @ 1:48 am
I’d be happy to alphabetize and format it in tidy HTML.
Comment by Annabel — March 20, 2013 @ 5:25 am
By all means. Bung it over!
Comment by GinnyW — March 20, 2013 @ 5:46 am
I can help alphabetize, and check for redundancies (and incidentally inconsistencies). Bring on the list!
Comment by Richard — March 20, 2013 @ 6:31 am
I’d enjoy helping and have time (which I’d need: since I don’t have a proper command-line editor for sorting, I’d have to do everything by cut-and-paste one line at a time), but could only return Notepad or Word formats (Word 2000 edition, but I’ve no idea if my Normal template is still the same as anyone else’s – at the very least I believe I’ve adjusted line margins), or paste directly into e-mail.
I’ve compiled for myself a thoroughly complete list of proper names from the first three books only (not Gird’s pair nor the current series, and none of the invented words such as “taig”). At the very least send me your list after Jennifer or someone has organised it, and I can extract from my own list further suggestions for names to be treated. Ignoring those in familiar English such as Dapplevale and Dancing Cockerel.
What I wouldn’t dare attempt is to extrapolate pronunciations or suggest how to show them.
How do you intend to handle multiple names such as Kieri Artfiel Phelan? Or Dorthan and Dorthansdotter?
Comment by elizabeth — March 20, 2013 @ 9:07 am
Jennifer, Annabel, Ginny W, and Richard: Thank you, First Four! You are now titled the Pronunciation Working Group, and (being the chaotic organizer that I am) I’m going to set out some tasks and suggest that you pick your poison, as it were.
I’ve talked to my web-guru; we’re going to have a hidden page on the Paksworld site where files related to this will exist and you can download them to work on. My experience is (yours may be different) that when alphabetizing and checking for inconsistencies (such as my making a mistake and giving two different pronunciations for the same name) and redundancies, it helps to have 2-4 people all working independently then comparing notes. Feel free to share your working files with each other for this purpose.
File format confusion being what it is, the following will apply: files sent to me or to the webmistress must be in one of these three formats: .doc (NOT .docx), .rtf, or .txt (plain ASCII) Richard, since you have that complete list of names from the first three books, it would be immensely helpful to me to have those and start working on them (a few a day between other stuff); I expect the alphabetizers would like that list too, so when I get it, I’ll have Ruta upload it to the hidden page. Web-guru has a doctor’s appointment this morning and another appointment later, so thinks she’ll have the link for me, “loaded” with the lists from Brilliance, for sure by 5 pm today (Central Time, USA) and I’ll post it here as soon as I have it.
Thank you all VERY much.
Comment by Mike D — March 20, 2013 @ 11:43 am
Hi Pronunciation Working Group !
A slightly more complex pronunciation scheme can be found here
http://www.dendarii.com/dictionary.html
And in _The Vorkosigan Companion_
Hichard, even if you don’t have a WP that can do it, every spreadsheet can load a txt file and sort it by column
Little Egret in Walton-on-Thames
Comment by elizabeth — March 20, 2013 @ 1:44 pm
Here’s the link: a page for the Pronunciation Project and a link to the list.
Comment by elizabeth — March 20, 2013 @ 1:44 pm
Um…it helps if you actually past the link into the comment, doesn’t it?
http://www.paksworld.com/pronunciation.html
Comment by elizabeth — March 20, 2013 @ 1:50 pm
Mike D. Yes, that’s definitely a more elaborate pronunciation scheme, and not one I have time to deal with now. Later I may do better, but I’m in the final stages of Book V, and simple is the best I can do…and I don’t want people having to wait longer.
Annotating first appearance of a word would be useful, but again I haven’t time to do that. If anyone wants to, it’s fine with me.
Comment by Karen — March 20, 2013 @ 6:25 pm
I wish I had read this to have actually offered real help.
As Richard suggests, however, transferring names from a Word (or other text editing document) into a spreadsheet is the way I was taught to solve this problem (I had to complete a 56-page index and glossary for a textbook within a week, so anything that makes the process easier is a blessing).
The key is that there must be line breaks, commas, or something similar within the list. From there, it’s easy (probably shouldn’t say that — I was using Word and Excel 2006 — knock on wood!?!) to copy the entire list and, with a column highlighted, paste in the list. Next, go to Data/Sort and tell it to sort the words in the column (the default used to be alphabetically).
The best part of this technique is that you immediately see any duplications and new inclusions are easy to add by adding rows, then using the same sort commmand.
Pronunciation guides can be placed in the next column over, then merged and the whole thing returned back into normal text.
As for the use of special pronunciation symbols, I hate to say it, but in this day and age, I’m ag’in ’em. I doubt many schoolchildren are taught even the simplest ones any more, and to foreigners, the same marks can have different pronunciations.
Comment by GinnyW — March 20, 2013 @ 7:09 pm
Got the list. Thank you! And thanks for the working suggestions.
Comment by Linda — March 20, 2013 @ 7:32 pm
Another thought is to just have Elizabeth record herself reading the words and then let the Brilliance folks use that as their base … and the blog helpers too … if you don’t want to just click on the word in the alphabetical list to hear it.
I am curious about the names perhaps having a slightly different pronunciation in British English (for audiobooks) or various dialects of Common. Sorry, don’t mean to be a troublemaker.
Comment by elizabeth — March 20, 2013 @ 9:34 pm
Karen: I’ve never used a spreadsheet, so you’re far beyond my competence. I used to have a word processor that would do alphabetic sorts easily, and then duplicates also showed up.
Linda: Some previous audiobooks folks have recorded me (over the phone, even) and made whatever marks work for them…my guess would be that they use the International Phonetic Alphabet (which is far too complex, IMO, for the casual reader though ideal for those who know it.) Professional actors and singers know it, as well as linguists. (Our choir director does, and encourages us to learn. I’ve been…er…busy.) But Brilliance wanted my stuff in writing, which is how we have the list we have. You’re not being a troublemaker at all–the goal is to help readers with the words, and bringing up the potential dialect differences is a reasonable point.
The names, as I hear them in my head, have variations that are Paksworld dialects translated (somehow) into various English and American dialects of English. Actually, now that I’ve traveled to New Zealand and Australia–some of them are picking up nuances of those. EEEP. This change in how I hear the words I made up came in the years between the early and current Paksworld books. So did joining the really good choir and taking voice lessons–it sharpened my ear for language and especially vowel sounds. The elves have more “singing” vowels and fewer of those that sound less beautiful in singing (what various choir directors have called “platter” or “pizza” vowels) and more vertical or “sophisticated” vowels.
However, for the casual reader, as opposed to a voice actor, it’s not necessary to know *exactly* how a vowel shifts in dialects…as long as it’s clear there are slight differences, and they’re given a familiar “central” version to go on with. Most people will, I think, impose one of the dialects they are familiar with, if they’re reading (and not listening) to the book. I may be wrong. For those who both read and listen, a voice actor’s choice may sound wrong. In my head, the dialect changes are subtler than our big regional cliches (we in south Texas used to make sly fun of the winter visitors’ accents, especially Minnesota. They were happy enough to comment on ours.)
Comment by Daniel Glover — March 20, 2013 @ 10:00 pm
Yeah, sure, you betcha. So of them, up here, you know, sure get offended to be compared to that thar Fargo movie. But, many of us get into the act when everyone is “honey” and such, down thar in the South. 😉
Comment by Karen — March 20, 2013 @ 10:52 pm
Dear Hostess,
You’re too kind. What I detailed explains almost all I know how to do using a spreadsheet.
I did, however suspect that there are those with similar uses, and thought it might even be worth tossing the idea at the wonderful elves who have agreed to undertake the actual work, since it is so simple to convert the alphabetized text back into a form with which printers are more than familiar (with 56 pages of text to compile, submit to production, and finally proof within a week, I wasn’t going to try any fancy computer tricks!)
Hopefully, it will all come together quickly, and if you still need any help, please give me a holler.
Comment by Jennifer — March 21, 2013 @ 2:54 am
How should we send back results? Mail, or posting here?
Comment by Sharidann — March 21, 2013 @ 4:12 am
Good luck to the Fantastic 4 🙂
Can’t wait to see the result.
Alas, wayy too much underwater with other stuff to offer any help, and not sure at all I would be of any help, not being an english native speaker. 🙂
Elizabeth, keep up the good work, the feet are warming up slowly in readiness of the happy dance I shall dance as soon as Limits of Power lands in my greedy hands!
Comment by Gareth — March 21, 2013 @ 5:34 am
I’ve sometimes found myself imagining different parts of PAKSworld with different accents or different races having their accents even when speaking in a common language. Trying to relate to different variants of english.
If we add to the nuances that the same name might be said if different areas differently…
English… The UK is such a small place but we have such a variety of accents from the obvious Welsh, Scottish and Irish variations to the large number English regional accepts – Put a Geordie in the same room as a Cornishman and they might not understand each other. Add to that US (S, mid-west, E coast, Maine (definitely different) at least) and Canadian (Quebec, East/Mid and West at least) not to mention Aussie, NZ, South Africa etc. I can’t determine different areas of the latter ones but I expect their native speakers could.
So can we really have one pronunciation guide or might we also in the fullness of time have guides to regional accents… I’ll bet Elizabeth ‘hears’ someone from Pargun differently to Count Andressat or a Dwarf/Elf/Gnome etc. It sounds as if the gnomes at least have a slightly different grammar in their native language giving rise to their way of speaking common.
Oh well – that the thing with world creation – it evolves… I wish the fabulous four all success and it will be a great start.
Comment by Richard — March 21, 2013 @ 3:49 pm
Thank you, Elizabeth, for trusting us to (as it were) babysit your brainchild.
Everyone, the good news is that from some of the names I see, Brilliance must be already working on an audiobook version of Limits.
Karen, do elves work? Oh, you don’t mean Paksworld’s, you mean Santa’s.
Gareth, one elven name in particular (that Elizabeth has already blogged here) makes me think of native Welsh, the language in which the bards sang.
Comment by Karen — March 21, 2013 @ 6:37 pm
Richard,
There was the story of the elf who labored for a century to build a harp fit for a royal wedding….
Comment by GinnyW — March 22, 2013 @ 10:01 am
Gwennothlin sounds Welsh to me as well –
Comment by elizabeth — March 22, 2013 @ 3:31 pm
GinnyW: You’re on the right track there. That character is homage to a late friend who was Welsh in heritage, loved Wales and studied Welsh, and whose SCA name, shortened, was Gwenno.
Comment by Karen — March 22, 2013 @ 5:18 pm
I probably should have mentioned, since you’re doing the hard part of providing the pronunciations, that the same process I described works for the second column (the pronunciation guide) as well.
Once you’ve got the words in alphabetical order (or some semblance thereof) it’s a breeze to link a second column (the pronunciations — and anything else you might like to add) so that any further sorts in the spreadsheet treat the two as though they had been linked at the hip.
There are probably many other elves better qualified to help, but, as always, I would be honored to lend any assistance I can.
P.S. My cousin, Gwen, was named in part in honor of my uncle Merlin (I have never said that my family was anything but challenged in the social aspects of naming). Her formal name Gwendolyn, has indeed always reminded me of Gwenothlin, in part because the strength of her personality has been so similar that I have always considered it a bit of an honor to her (even though she’s enough older that I never knew her at anything approaching an awkward age).
Comment by GinnyW — March 23, 2013 @ 8:14 am
I pasted the list into Excel, but I have had some nightmare experiences with scrambled columns. (I learned Excel when teaching to handle gradesheets). In this case, I did not put the pronunciations in a separate column, just pasted the whole thing as a single column. There used to be a way to do that in Word, as well.
It is good to have a Welsh influence in Paksworld – it rests comfortably in the granges of Gird, I think.
Comment by Daniel Glover — March 23, 2013 @ 8:30 am
Ginny,
Good way to start since then they’ll be (?) a backup with pronunciations appropriately attached someplace if something goes awry. I just had a cut and paste issue with transferring between tables in Word and Excel for just this sort of thing. Haven’t been able to figure out what the issue is. Though think it’s something to do with it being an encrypted file for security.
It is best if they could be in separate columns as they are really separate fields. But that could be done later.
I’m burning the candle from both ends or I’d offer to help now. Though I plan to follow this thread and offer help if things lighten up (hah!).
Comment by Nadine Barter Bowlus — March 23, 2013 @ 9:19 am
As a reader with no linguistics training at all, the most helpful system is spelling the syllables as Elizabeth demonstrated in her first post. Thanks to all of you for taking on this task.
Comment by Karen — March 23, 2013 @ 10:53 am
Danny,
I still have an ancient version of MS Office (and refuse to upgrade until they tie me down and hold a gun to my head).
If there’s anything I can do to help (since the functionality seems to have devolved, please give me a holler?
The trick used to work better than most clocks.
Comment by Karen — March 23, 2013 @ 10:58 am
Danny,
I should have mentioned, BTW, that there’s no need (in the version I prefer) to use tables in Word at all.
Simple line breaks are all that’s needed to fill the cells in an Excel document. The trick of connecting a single row in a single column (so that the words and their pronunciations are tied) in Excel is a bit trickier, but quite doable (especially when done by rote).
The conversion process back from Excel to Word does involve the use of tables, but only in the most rudimentary sense (and, frankly, only if you haven’t merged the columns containing the word and its pronunciation prior to moving the list back to Word).
Comment by Daniel Glover — March 24, 2013 @ 1:59 pm
Well, this particular project was something given to me. Information I needed in a single column was given in multiple columns tables in multiple tables in Word, that I had to compress into a single column and then only take the first portion of the information given in the Word document for which I needed Excel functions. If it’d been me I would have started entirely differently.
As opposed to this project where the data will be shared by multiple individuals but if it’s laid out properly to begin with it’ll be far less prone to the issues I had. The process you all have started appears quite sound.
Comment by NancyB — March 24, 2013 @ 9:12 pm
Back to Mike D’s pointer to the Vorkosigan (dendarii.com) pronunciation guide: I offer the simpler system I used on the Chalion dictionary, plus the page is an example of what an resulting web page might look like: http://dendarii.com/dict-chalion.html . I note that E’s pronunciation system looks perfectly clear as it is, so this post is just a side note–maybe just a point of interest of what vowels and consonants seem to confuse people.
I also note that both these pages, the Chalion even more than the Vorkosigan, were intended as dictionaries as well as pronunciation guides, and that’s not where the Paksworld one is going right now. So maybe it’s not such a useful example for web layout after all….
Comment by Richard — March 25, 2013 @ 3:45 am
Nancy,
your Chalion list does look good – how is it handled? I was thinking Jennifer’s html idea was the way to go (once we have a fair copy list in order, ready to be marked up), and until seeing your example I assumed she meant using definition list tags, but won’t that only work for two columns not three?
We have some long names to deal with (and some first-, middle-, surname groups) which expand to longer pronunciations, sometimes followed by a note of explanation, so can fill a page width just with them.
Comment by Daniel Glover — March 25, 2013 @ 6:45 pm
Richard,
From what I could see from pulling down the page and looking at it’s innards was it’s just a simple old-style html table without the more recent css stuff.