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If you have over a million words of fiction set in the same world, you’re very likely going to have a lot of characters and those characters need names. The names have to fit the world, and each other. In real life, many people may have the same name (which is how the innocent get blamed for crimes they didn’t commit): there are dozens of Elizabeth Moons across the country, with at least one in most states and at least nine in Texas. But in a book (as I discovered in my first one, when I didn’t know better) readers expect one name per character and one character per name. They need those names to be easily pronounced (and “easily” varies with the reader) and distinctive.
I can’t fix the names I used in the earlier books–they’re canonical now–but I have tried, in the new books, not to compound the difficulty with more identical or similar names. (Sometimes it’s plot-relevant that names are alike. Can’t help that.) Some obvious “rules” include: characters with the same name shouldn’t be talking to one another unless there’s a nickname or other way you can tell them apart. Characters with names that look too similar (even if they’re not identical) shouldn’t be in the same conversation since “said Jan” and “said Jon” are going to be mixed up. As with software–if there’s a way for confusion to exist, someone will be confused, so write it so it’s not possible.
I bring this up now, because months ago I wrote a scene in which a new Marshal was introduced as Marshal Cedlin. He’s male, a native of Fintha. The name fit the personality (solid, reliable, competent) with the /ed/ sound. It wasn’t until revision time, when that chapter ended up near a chapter with a female character (more minor, but talked about) named Celbrin (notice the different feel of the sounds.) She’s a native Tsaian. They never meet, so there’s no direct contact of the names. The names don’t rhyme; they don’t sound much alike, but to look at–typographically–the /dl/ and /lb/ are a potential problem. I’ve argued with myself about this for a week now–I really like both names for the people they are, and as usual, in writing them, they grew into their names–but have come down on the side of clarity.
Cedlin is about to be changed, in a global search & replace. (He’s in more than one chapter, at this point.) It’s taken a couple of days to come up with a replacement name that does everything a name for a minor character with an important role must do. I hope it does work for all the name functions. I hope the search-and-replace actually catches all of them this time.
(See your writer at work, trying to make your reading experience smoother.)
EDIT NOTE: Meant to mention that the ms. for Book IV, which had shrunk to under 160,000 words (I forget the exact amount: 157-ish, I think), is now right at 166,000 and growing. The decision to move everything after Mmmph into Book V, and split Ummph between this book and V, meant opening up room to enrich some squashed-feeling stuff. Some things will still be covered fairly quickly, as there’s a ceiling not far overhead.
Comment by Genko — January 11, 2012 @ 12:44 pm
And, just to offer one more complication, what about Marshall Cedrin, in Brewersbridge? To me, that’s even closer to Cedlin, but not quite so close to Celbrin. The fact that they both would have been Marshalls just makes it more confusing. Thanks for changing it.
It’s definitely easy to mix up characters of similar or the same names, especially when we can’t actually SEE them — the name is our primary clue, with description and context helping some.
Comment by elizabeth — January 11, 2012 @ 12:59 pm
Cedrin is indeed closer to Cedlin, but a) Cedrin is canonic now and b) he’s not showing up in the current books (well, not yet, and I’m not expecting him. In fact, I’ll give his horse a loose shoe if he tries to come anywhere near Celbrin.
Comment by Xany — January 11, 2012 @ 3:44 pm
Yes, I remember being very confused because there’s a Beclan in Camwyn’s horse-riding class (at least, in his class in the scene where his and Aris’ horses have to be killed) and a Beclan who is Dorrin’s squire, but they are different Beclans. Cue a lot of riffing back and forth making sure I wasn’t dreaming …
Comment by elizabeth — January 11, 2012 @ 6:04 pm
Sigh. Yet another time the writer-brain seized up a little.
Comment by Lex — January 11, 2012 @ 6:52 pm
I don’t think Cedrin is as egregious since it doesn’t have the doubled ascenders ( -dl- and -lb- ) to confuse the eye. I wonder if replacing the i in Cedlin or Celbrin with a y might differentiate the name with a descender. ie Cedlyn or Celbryn.
This reminds me of a passage from the preface of Manning and Walker’s British Warship Names (a great bathroom book);
Comment by Richard — January 11, 2012 @ 7:20 pm
Genko: Cedfer, not Cedrin. But thinking about this topic has had me diving at random into the Gird/Luap books (for Finthan names) and finding a Marshal Geddrin.
Xany: yes, Beclan Destvaorn (and Belin Destvaorn, a few years older, is in the same book), Beclan Mahieran the squire, and Beclan Mahieran the latter’s uncle. This is not an artificially neat fantasy world where every single named person manages to have a unique name. To me, that is part of its appeal.
(My office teammates once were three Johns and two Andys; when one of the Johns left his replacement was a third Andy. What author would have dared write that?)
Elizabeth, names as alike as Cedrin (if that had been what you used before) and Cedlin might have distracted me wondering whether one was a mistake (unless used together like Dwalin and Balin, Fili and Kili, etc); but Cedlin and Celbrin I would have passed without batting an eyelid.
Comment by Richard — January 11, 2012 @ 7:48 pm
Lex, I don’t know Manning and Walker; perhaps I should. I do find that, in WW2, HM Ships Hardy, Hearty, Handy and Hasty were all destroyers, and could easily have all served together in the same operation, had not Handy and Hearty been renamed.
Comment by Richard — January 11, 2012 @ 7:53 pm
PS The name HMS Hardy was, of course, repeating the surname of Nelson’s flag-captain.
Comment by elizabeth — January 12, 2012 @ 12:03 am
Richard: Within a family, names are likely to repeat (though in some this-world cultures names cannot be re-used until the original dies.) My husband’s family is thick with Richards and Walters and Toms. So Beclan the squire and Beclan the former Knight-Commander of the Bells were uncle and nephew…fairly normal familial naming. What with intermarriages among the nobility of Tsaia, some names are found in almost every family…Juris, for instance. Beclan and Sonder are not found outside the nobility Arcolin’s first name, Jandelir, is definitely a southern name and sounds exotic to the Tsaians. Selis is generally considered a commoner’s name, but it’s found in noble families on occasion (the present Duke Marrakai.) The Verrakaien preserved some old, mostly disused, names (also found in Konhalt areas): Haron, Vasli, Lutervin.
Comment by Rolv — January 12, 2012 @ 2:54 am
I find the confusion of same & similar names appealing, it adds to the versimilitude. So I’m happy with having Cedlin and Celbrin sharing the stage. But then, I have a surname so common in my country that my brother changed to Smith – and that’s a fact.
Comment by Mollie Marshall — January 12, 2012 @ 9:17 am
I agree that having different people with the same name makes for realism, especially where there is a family connection or the given name is a common one for that country.
Merely similar names, however, when attached to people in similar situations, do cause confusion. For example, there are two female Lyonyan squires, Maelith (Kings of the North, p.8 of the British paperback ed.) and Kaelith (same, p.194-5). I had concluded that there was a misprint, but perhaps should wait to see if they re-appear in Echoes as different people?
Comment by elizabeth — January 12, 2012 @ 9:40 am
Rolv: Thanks for the clarification on names from your perspective. However, the search & replace has already taken place (though now I’m considering changing it back…Cedlin and Celbrin will not ever be in the same scene or even the same chapter…)
Mollie: Maelith and Kaelith are both fairly common names in Lyonya, where the /ae/ as a vowel sound and /lith/ as a name ending are both common. However, Maelith as one of the KS is a typo: it’s supposed to be Maelis. The /s/ and /lith/ endings are variants, with the /lith/ more common in Lyonya than in Tsaia; /s/ is fairly common in both. I actually “hear” Maelis with a softened /s/ approximating a /th/ or /ths/. Both reappear in Book IV.
Here in Texas, where the “general” Texas accent does not distinguish between “very” and “vary” (for instance) we have several names that differ in sound only with the first phoneme: Barry, Berry, Larry, Kerry, Mary, Merry, Perry, Terry are all said with the same vowel sound, but are all easily recognized in books as different names. Writers generally worry more about first-letters in avoiding like-sounding names, expecing more confusion in things like Celbrin and Cedlin than in (for instance) Celbrin and Melbrin or Felbrin.
Comment by Jonathan Schor — January 12, 2012 @ 1:20 pm
Wimps – be like the Russian authors with everyone having six or seven given names and three or four nicknames.
Comment by elizabeth — January 12, 2012 @ 1:33 pm
Jonathan: You, sir, are being mischievous. How delightful. But in fact, I remember being miserably confused by some of those novels and would not wish to have my readers in the mood I was in.
Comment by Kylinn — January 12, 2012 @ 8:50 pm
I liked that some names were repeated here and there; it was confusing at first but then it made the world seem more real. Big Sim and Little Sim, or a Beclan over here and one over there, I have no problem with. Something like the Maelith and Kaelith similarity is actually more confusing, when you’re not sure if it’s a typo or not.
Comment by pjm — January 12, 2012 @ 9:35 pm
I agree with Kylinn. Let the characters sort out the confusion so we laugh and learn. – Peter (one of 3 in my new job).
Comment by Moira — January 13, 2012 @ 3:33 am
I’m with Rolv: multiple characters with the same name is no problem. I think it would be less realistic if there were no “same-names” in the books, if only because in our world there are. And we all like our fantasy to be realistic. (Perverse, aren’t we?)
One of the moments I recall so clearly from Deed is Paks’ reaction when, after the Dwarfwatch saga, the first batch of new recruits comes down from the North and one of them is called Saben.
‘Nuff said.
Comment by Rolv Olsen — January 13, 2012 @ 8:15 am
Moira,
Yes, that’s one of my favourite moments as well. Recently, I officiated at the funeral of a woman having the same name as my sister (before she married). I imagine my feeling was slightly similar to Paks’.
Elizabeth,
I also love the way you alternate between family names and first names without spelling it out in advance. Suddenly, we get ot know that Stammel is Mathis and Arcolin is Jandelir, just the way we would find out if we were in Paks’ shoes.
Comment by elizabeth — January 13, 2012 @ 1:35 pm
All right, then. Search & replace will give the Marshal back his original name, Cedlin.
Now for your further confusion, here’s the name of an elf ruling the Lordsforest: Machrynalythnan (and that’s the short form, I swear.) You probably want a pronunciation guide, right? Mahch (gutteral ch)-reeyanah-LITH-nahn.
Comment by Kerry aka Trouble — January 13, 2012 @ 2:42 pm
The Lordsforest? You never said anything about a Lordsforest. Where’s that? Or is that too spoilerish?
Comment by elizabeth — January 13, 2012 @ 2:50 pm
It’s mentioned in the earlier books, both in the Paks books and in the Luap book. The Lordsforest is the elvenhome in the west, north and east of Kolobia. The elf Luap met in the west ruler of the Lordsforest. Except for that, the Lordsforest elves have not been visible in the stories, though they’ve been talked of briefly.
Comment by Genko — January 13, 2012 @ 3:07 pm
Cedfer — you are right — that’s what I get for relying on my increasingly unreliable memory! And yes, I too changed my name from one that was always duplicated in classes I took. It was just a hassle. Now it’s a different kind of hassle, but I find I prefer being a little different or odd to being one of several the same.
Comment by Kevin Steverson — January 13, 2012 @ 8:31 pm
Ma’am,
I’m glad you went back to the original name…it was there in the first place because you felt that it fit the character. That’s good enough for me..”Go with your gut” I always say…
Off topic: My wife, Stacey, is a Master Craftswoman in the Art of Cross Stitching. ( I have bestowed that title to her after she finished a work of art showing Jesus’ hands sewing back together a tattered American Flag) She has a program that enables her to take any picture and turn it into a pattern..then she goes to work. Some of her work has taken up to a year and then some. This is with her working on it every evening. And when you turn the piece over…the back looks like the front..(no strings or knots).
I say all this, leading towards a question. Would it be alright for her to cross stich Paks? If so, is there a favorite artist rendition of her that you like? Obviously, this would be one piece, and definatley not for any sort of profit, whatsoever. It would probably never be seen, except for friends and family.
I am a full time member of the National Guard but I am also a song writer, so I understand the nature of copyrights and such. I was just wondering about your thoughts on this.
Comment by elizabeth — January 14, 2012 @ 1:36 am
It would be fine with me for her to cross-stitch an image of Paks. The two best images I’ve seen of Paks weren’t even of Paks: one was from a photo essay in Sports Illustrated in 1984, before the Olympic Games, of a Finnish woman javelin thrower (book was almost finished by then, but that young woman just jumped off the page: there she was as the young Paks, fresh off the farm. Healthy, happy, athletic, not beautiful but attractive the way healthy young people are.) The other was a pencil drawing in The Western Horseman’s artist section, of a woman ranch hand–clearly after a hard day’s work, leaning on the door of the bunkhouse–the face, the expression, was the tired Paks after a battle. Competent, tough, fit… again–not a beauty, but not ugly or even plain.
Stupid me, I didn’t keep either magazine. Should have.
Of the cover images, I’ve always liked the cover of the Baen omnibut DEED, except the horse isn’t a bay–he’s a red chestnut. No black mane or tail. The fan art I’ve seen that’s supposed to be Paks has her too girly–tiny waist, too model-skinny–and often too pretty.
Comment by Rolv Olsen — January 14, 2012 @ 7:21 am
The Finnish javelin thrower was probably Tiina Lillak. Could this be the picture?
http://www.iaaf.org/mm/photo/news/magazine/30628_w120xh120.jpg
Comment by elizabeth — January 14, 2012 @ 8:48 am
Thanks for the ID–I wouldn’t have been able to find it! But I can’t tell from the thumbnail if that’s the same person…the Sports Illustrated piece on her had pictures from before the Olympics, of her at home in Finland. It was the edition before the Olympics and she was one of the featured athletes. Walking through a field with grass and flowers, standing with the javelin, things like that. Two of the three or four pictures hit me immediately, including the “walking through the summer flowers” one and one of those with the javelin. The little thumbnail–I can’t see her face, and to me (this many years later) one javelin thrower about to throw looks much like another.
Comment by Rolv Olsen — January 14, 2012 @ 9:07 am
SI had an article on Lillak on July 18, 1984:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122306/2/index.htm
But I can’t find the photos.
She was the favourite, being reigning world champion and world record holder, but had to settle for silver in LA.
Comment by elizabeth — January 14, 2012 @ 9:20 am
Again thanks to Rolv, found this on YouTube from the 1983 World Championships. I wish I could find a larger picture or video of her teammate Tuula Laaksalo…my memory may be wrong (gee–27 years plus my own increasing age–could it be?) but I remember the Sports Illustrated article as showing a young woman with lighter, straight hair. But the exuberance, the athleticism…yes. Lillak would certainly do very well. I suppose I could write Sports Illustrated and ask them to check their archives…
Comment by elizabeth — January 14, 2012 @ 9:22 am
Rolv, you beat me to it! Excellent data-digging. It must be the one; that’s the copy I remember looking at, just before the Olympics. Hurray!
Comment by iphinome — January 14, 2012 @ 10:08 am
By a strange coincidence I have a couple of friends in Finland. I could ask one of them if they can dig up photos being better equipped to poke though Finnish websites than I am.
Comment by Mollie Marshall — January 14, 2012 @ 11:49 am
Just going back for a moment past the Finnish javelin thrower as model for Paks, to the topic of general confusion.
I continue to be puzzled about Ganarrion Verrakai, whom Dorrin proposes to make her heir. When Paks met him in Oath of Gold, he is described as a ‘heavy-set older man’ (p.214) who remembers the loss of the Lyonyan queen and prince. ‘I was only a boy when it happened. Forty years, it must be, or fifty. Somewhat around then’ (p.217). In Oath of Fealty, however, he seems rejuvenated. The Crown Prince describes him as a young man (p.42)and Ganarrion talks to Dorrin at the coronation with a sort of deference quite unlike the hearty self-confidence of the Oath of Gold commander. It’s definitely the same man not his son, as he mentions meeting Paks.
Am I missing something?
Comment by elizabeth — January 14, 2012 @ 12:05 pm
No. It’s called a mistake on the author’s part. SIGH.
Comment by Richard — January 14, 2012 @ 4:00 pm
Elizabeth,
Most characters with names ending in -a are women – though not Cracolyna (unless that is his surname?), Visla (Duke Vaskronin) nor Arranha. Apart from that, I see no differences in style between boys’ names and girls’ names. Could it be that many names are unisex?
Comment by Richard — January 14, 2012 @ 5:09 pm
Mollie,
since you are immersing yourself in the books – how long ago did you find this site, and if recently then how far back through the older blogs have you been? – spot where Maelith is identified in Kings as one of the part-elven Squires. And where Kaelith appears in Fealty, making her one of King Sarnion’s veterans (I cannot think of any other word to use), hence “human-bred, with only the barest hint of taig-sense”.
Comment by elizabeth — January 14, 2012 @ 5:20 pm
Most names are either masculine or feminine–so there’s no feminine ending needed because the names don’t have male/female forms. A few names have both (Keris and Kerin forms.) A few names require a feminine ending if a girl is given a masculine name (for instance, to honor a saint: so the paladin Camwynya, named for Camwyn Dragonmaster. In those instances, I went with a because it sounded better. (Cawmwynyi? No. Camwynyo? No. Etc.)
I made a deliberate choice early on not to have /a/ as a gender marker for female, and most women’s names do not end in /a/. I’d noticed a lot of fantasy books (in the ’70s) where all the girls’ names ended in /a/. On the other hand, avoiding it entirely for women seemed unnecessary. Soon it began dividing up by region (but the exact rules I’ve had to give up on, as that was part of what was lost.)
I didn’t use /a/ often for the ending of male names because it would likely confuse people who think /a/ might be intended as a feminine marker. Which I guess does make it a feminine marker, in a roundabout way. I have no idea whether Cracolnya has another name or not. He’s very secretive about some things and unlike many characters he’s never wanted a place on center stage.
Comment by John — January 14, 2012 @ 7:14 pm
“I have no idea whether Cracolnya has another name or not.”This is actualy historicaly correct many men and women only had one name in “medievel”societies.So perhaps he does not have one either,or he was probibly known as was Pakssenarion Dorthansdoughter(a very Iclandic sounding name I must say),with his fathers name appended with ………son.
Comment by Gretchen — January 14, 2012 @ 7:55 pm
I spotted a still of Tiina, Lady of Javelins and the Mighty Arm. Here’s the link to the website’s “image only” spot.
http://yle.fi/elavaarkisto/kuvat/artikkeli/05630_1iso.jpg
I think it’s a good snapshot of a happy young woman. 🙂
Comment by iphinome — January 15, 2012 @ 2:56 am
This is the best of the options presented to me form searches originating in Finland. One of Tiina, none of Tuula http://www.sporting-heroes.net/files_athletics/LILLAK_Tiina_19880630_GH_L.jpg
Mission: failed.
*slinks away*
Comment by Mollie Marshall — January 15, 2012 @ 8:21 am
Richard/Elizabeth: I’ve been following this blog only since Kings of the North came out, so haven’t looked into the archive. Must try to do that before I post comments which have already been sorted! Sorry.
Comment by elizabeth — January 15, 2012 @ 8:35 am
Gretchen: That’s lovely, thanks. One of the things about the SI article in ’84 was that she wasn’t in competition, so not in competition attire with a crowd behind her. She was in “civvies” out in the country, which connected better to my vision of Paks. This has the same naturalness, and she looks likeable–approachable–the sort of person who would make friends easily. Then–javelin (or sword) in hand, be a deadly foe.
iphinome: You would not want this person hurling javelins at YOU, would you? But if I had seen the competition images of her first, I’m not sure I would have connected her to Paks more than any other athlete–the team uniform, the competitor number, the setting–all entirely alien to the book’s universe. Fitness, strength, speed, competitiveness are all there, but the setting is so striking I think it would’ve thrown me off. Though the video link I posted, of her with the winning throw at the ’83 World Championships–that exuberance–is definitely the young Paks, and makes her very appealing.
Mollie: No apologies necessary–though when you have time you might enjoy the archives.
Comment by Richard — January 15, 2012 @ 5:17 pm
Hi Mollie,
That’s nearly as long as I’ve been coming, then, and so far as I remember those comments of yours hadn’t arisen before, neither during that time nor as far back in the archives as I went. Nice to hear from another British fan.
Comment by Gareth — January 19, 2012 @ 12:40 pm
Machrynalythnan
You studying Welsh in your spare time? Sounds very celtish. (At least you haven’t introduced the double l sound yet. (as in Llanelli – the place in South Wales). We just need the dd / th and ll to go with the ch …
Delightful sounding names. Attention to detail like this makes the work so much more real.