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Since I myself don’t enjoy pronunciation guides in books and would rather “hear as I read” whatever my phonics training hands me, I have resisted having a pronunciation guide for a long time. But this is the era of audio books as well as printed books, and the books are being read in places were vowel sounds (to name one complication) aren’t like the ones I hear around me. So it’s dawned on me that what I hear in my head should perhaps be laid out in a way that’s helpful to those who want/like pronunciation guides, without being stifling to those who–like me–wing it, right or wrong. (In other words, if you hate pronunciation guides, don’t look at it when it arrives.)
However…as I’m deeply into chain-sawing the infodump and static stuff from Book IV right now, I don’t have time to do this myself. This is an appeal for help, with no deadline attached to it. I see some preliminary questions needing to be answered, resulting from some problems. Spelling, for instance, is not an exact guide to how I say the names and other unique words (I just checked that) so we can’t just say “this letter combination is always pronounced this way.” And vowel sounds for the same English word vary widely around the world. (Where I grew up, we said “tin” for both “tin” and “ten.” But we never said “I’ll bit you will” for “I’ll bet you will.”)
So…should it be exhaustive (dictionary-like listing of every invented word with its pronunciation in some easy-to-understand fashion), or should it cover only the words used often enough to be “needed” by the reader?
Should the pronunciation guide follow the International Phonetic Alphabet or something simpler?
Should it be housed on the Paksworld website (my preference) or…somehow incorporated into the books (I see publisher resistance if the vote comes down on the side of exhaustive.)
Since it’s to be a service for readers, readers should have the chance to express what they want to see in it.
Comment by Annabel (Mrs Redboots) — October 24, 2011 @ 1:04 pm
Given that I’m British and I know full well that Americans often pronounce their names very differently to how I would – not just vowels, but stresses in different places and so on – I would like to see a list of characters and how they say their names in the books, if that’s possible. Failing that, on the website, but not everybody will look there.
Comment by Dave Ring — October 24, 2011 @ 1:17 pm
I’d advocate a short guide to pronunciation in forthcoming books and a more word by word guide on the website. For the short guide, I would avoid the IPA and use examples, e.g, ‘a’ as in father, ‘a’ as in hat, ‘i’ as in machine, ‘i’ as in hit. In the longer website resource, I’d really like to see the IPA used, mainly because it’s unambiguous.
If you have all the Paksworld books in computer readable files, I have some software tools that would make it easy to isolate all the unique nonstandard words, or you might be able to get these out of a trained spellchecking dictionary if you have maintained one.
I am interested in textual analysis and would be happy to help.
Comment by Kerry aka Trouble — October 24, 2011 @ 2:02 pm
What are you considering to be exhaustive? I think all names and words in elvish, dwarvish, gnomish, etc. should be covered using the IPA on the web site. What would be really cool would be if you could record what you hear in your head when you read those words and post some type of audio file on the web site. Cooler yet, with definitions 🙂
Comment by Rowanmdm — October 24, 2011 @ 2:12 pm
In the books themselves it would be great to have a pronunciation guide for main character and place names (e.g. names used more than 10 times), while on the website you can have an exhaustive list. A note in the printed version can direct readers to the website for the comprehensive guide.
I love the idea of audio files, but that would be quite the endeavor and might not be feasible time-wise.
Comment by Chuck — October 24, 2011 @ 8:12 pm
I’d like to see a simple guide using examples for the vowel sounds, and any non-English consonant sounds; that would let most readers “hear” in something approximating their own dialect. Maybe a general rule like “vowels as in Spanish except when …” would help some readers. Most important, though, is getting the stress on the right syllables. Hearing something you imagined one way pronounced by the author another way is more disconcerting when you got the accented syllables wrong (makes me feel stupid even if its not really anybody’s fault).
On first reading Tolkien I had very definite pronunciations in mind, and it was about a year between reading the first volume before I got the third volume with all its careful linguistic guidance. It took a few years for the “correct” pronunciations to take over. It helped when I studied Latin in high school, but putting in a quick note like E.R. Eddison did (“Pronounce as you like, but here are some tips to how I hear the names”) would be appreciated. I’m all for IPA on the more extensive volume (the specialty press volume of appendices, with POETRY as well?) or website to come in the future, one hopes.
Comment by Alaska Fan — October 24, 2011 @ 9:00 pm
I’d suggest proper names only (places and people) and U.S. dictionary notation.
Unless you hear the words in your head very strangely indeed, most of your proper names seem reasonably obvious. You avoid the kind of names that the late Diana Wynne Jones mocked unmercifully in “Tough Guide to Fantasy.” But where it’s not obvious, a short list in the book would be useful.
Comment by Cindy — October 24, 2011 @ 11:43 pm
I’d rather have it on the website. Easier to just look there instead of going back and forth in a book. Think the pronunciation of proper names is more important than including everything that’s ever mentioned.
Comment by Jenn — October 25, 2011 @ 6:36 am
I am for pronunciation lesson to the professional readers of the audio books and leave everything else to the minds of the readers.
I am only a purist when it is vocal: speech, acting, recitation, dictation etc.
Comment by Julia Coldren-Walker — October 25, 2011 @ 7:51 am
I disagree that the names are self evident. Take Paksenarrion
Is it PAK see nar ree on
or
PAKS en are run
or
pak sin ARE ree on
I just think Paks when I see it.
Julia
Comment by elizabeth — October 25, 2011 @ 8:28 am
Some of the names are more self-evident than others. When I was writing the first Paks books, I did not yet know how upset readers were if they could not instantly “hear” the words they read. (I didn’t know how many readers had not learned to read with phonics and had trouble with any unfamiliar words. )
And Paks thinks of herself as Paks 98% of the time. In her world, there are multiple dialects and regional pronunciations–as in ours–so she will be familiar with variant vowel sounds for “-arrion”, from AIR-ee-un to “ARE-eh-on.” Her full name has five syllables and two accented syllables–secondary accent on the first, primary accent on the third:
Paks-en-AIR-ee-un or Paks-en-ARE-ee-un. Her aunt called her Pak-SAY, not liking the Paks her brothers called her.
Dorrin is DORE-in. Verrakai is “VAIR-uh-kye” with a rolled /r/ in some dialects. Verrakaien (plural individuals named Verrakai) is Vair-uh-KYE-en, nearly always with rolled /r/.
Jandalir Arcolin has a softened /J/ JAHN-duh-leer ARE-ko-lin
Kieri Phelan…this is shortened from his given name, which he did not know for decades: Falkieri . In the shortened form, it’s another pronounced differently in different dialects: K-YEER-ee, kyee-eer-ee, KEER-ee
Gotta go back to work on revision.
Comment by Dave Ring — October 25, 2011 @ 9:24 am
Elizabeth, your last response illustrates why I advocate examples or IPA. ‘Paks-en-AIR-ee-un’ and ‘Paks-en-ARE-ee-un’ don’t give me any certainty what vowel sounds you intend — English spelling is just too inconsistent in representing sounds. Does the ‘a’ in Paks sound like that in father or like the ‘a’ in hat? Does the ‘en’ match hen or women? Of course examples may also have their pitfalls, if regional pronunciation of an example word varies.
Comment by Nancy Barber — October 25, 2011 @ 10:52 am
Ah, a subject dear to my heart–I’m one of those who wants a pronunciation guide, and in fact I did the ones for Lois Bujold’s Curse of Chalion (which is also a dictionary: http://dendarii.com/dict-chalion.html) and Paladin of Souls (included in the ebook, has not yet made it to the Web).
Those reflect my preferences for your questions: all ‘uncommon’ words are included, not just proper nouns or the most common words. It does NOT use the IPA, which I still can’t read despite some exposure to it, but a set of plain alphabet codes and “as in” examples, like “ah = a in father” which originated in the Vorkosigan pronunciation guide and I adapted with input from others.
On where it is housed: I’d vote for this Web site, as it’s accessible to most readers, can be easily updated to add terms as necessary, and doesn’t eat up space in the paper book. A publisher can grab it for an ebook edition if they desire, and do other value-added stuff–for Paladin of Souls, the publisher linked the first use of each term to the dictionary at the end of the file, which meant some re-writing to be sure the definitions didn’t have spoilers. For a pure pronunciation guide, that wouldn’t be an issue, of course.
Comment by Nancy Barber — October 25, 2011 @ 10:53 am
Sorry, the URL for the Chalion dictionary got a closing parenthesis stuck on the end. Should be just http://dendarii.com/dict-chalion.html
Comment by Daniel Glover — October 25, 2011 @ 10:58 am
Dave,
Regional dialects are going to happen. It’s why I guess I’m ambivalent about a pronunciation guide. My family uses a long “o” in rather than the traditional short one in the trade name. Always has as far back as I was able to trace. Definitely not the actor that was know as Mel Gibson’s sidekick. 😛
But when I spent a year as a student in the UK I just went with the short “o”. Too difficult to constantly “correct” people. Still pronounce it that way when people ask for a repeat. Partly its my really loooong “o” from Minnesoooota (best imitation from the movie “Fargo” here (hear?)) accent makes it worse. So I’m with Elizabeth. I really hadn’t given it a thought–actually I had thought of several pronunciations and just choose one that I thought fit.
Comment by Laura BurgandyIce — October 25, 2011 @ 11:48 am
It wouldn’t hurt to have a sort of list of who’s who, where or under whom to flip to when a character (or place) pops up. Not that I’ve forgotten who was who or where something is. Ahem. And it would be nice IN the books… with pronunciation guides for enthusiastic pronouncers. You could combine useful things, maybe, and just limit the pronunciation guide to whatever was convenient. Something more thorough and all-volume-encompassing would be handy on the website, too.
Just the answer you were looking for, hey? “Both!”
Comment by pjm — October 25, 2011 @ 7:23 pm
Interesting on pronunciation. I had always thought PAKS-en-ARR-i-on, with both A’s as in hat.
I agree with the example method of showing how to say things – much easier to understand, and makes some allowance for regional differences.
Peter
Comment by elizabeth — October 25, 2011 @ 9:32 pm
There are lots of things “it would hurt” to have, but I have very limited time. Writing the books trumps everything else.
There is already a character list on the Paksworld website. It is out of date again, but it’s a start. When I finish this volume, I’ll have my webguru put up the new “names” list.
In addition, there are lists and descriptions of peoples (humans of various kinds, elves, dwarves, gnomes), religions, and places. And in the new group of books, there’s a list of important characters in each book.
Comment by Jonathan Schor — October 26, 2011 @ 1:28 pm
I think that a guide is appropriate for when the book is read for an audio edition. Otherwise, I don’t think it is needed unless the language itself is an integral part of the story.
Comment by Laura BurgandyIce — October 27, 2011 @ 10:06 am
There are lots of things “it would hurt” to have, but I have very limited time. Writing the books trumps everything else.
Yea….. that’s probably your very best answer!!!! Or putting someone else on it, as you also mentioned.
Comment by Sam Barnett-Cormack — October 27, 2011 @ 10:08 am
Reading it to myself, I actually find I internally pronounce things differently depending on what language they’re stated or presumed to come from – Aarean (ooh, that shouldn’t be the demonym, surely, that’s risky), Elvish, rockfolk, men of the north, and so forth… that’s off the top of my head, though, so I can’t give examples. Maybe I’ll go and reread the three original and the two new ones so far and collate a list as I go of how I think them pronounced. Would a load of us each doing that be helpful?
Comment by Jonathan Schor — October 28, 2011 @ 10:32 am
Then too, you could be like the Russian authors, everyone has for or five names and two or three nicknames. You have to have a scorecard to know who the author is talking about.
Comment by Kaye — November 7, 2011 @ 3:54 am
Yes, a list of main characters and places in the front of each book, with phonetic pronunciations would be helpful to know how YOU hear it, I have been hearing “Kee-AIR-ee”, “Chy-a”, and “VAIR-eh-la,” but am not sure about “AIR-en-is.” Recurring characters in a series could be listed on the website, with phonetic pronunciations, with new names and places simply added for subsequent books in the same series.
Comment by elizabeth — November 7, 2011 @ 8:54 am
The amount and placement of supporting material is controlled by the publisher–and any supporting material adds to the production cost of the book. So at present, expanding the “Dramatis Personae” isn’t likely to happen, on practical grounds. I write books longer than the average and have to defend the wordage already. Eventually, I hope to have more material on the website, but either there will have to be a background book, or people will have to be willing to go to the website to get anything like the scope most of the commenters here want. There’s already a (partial, now) character list on the website, and a HUGE one in my working files. (HUGE–16 mostly single-spaced pages, and still growing…and I’m sure there are names, esp. from the older books, I’ve missed.)
The initial double /aa/ for Aare and Aarenis was intended to nudge the reader toward a softer “ah”….AH-reh and Ah-reh-NEES. (Minor accent first syllable, strong accent third/last syllable.) Nata (NAH-ta) and nisi (NEES-ee) are the Old Aarean words for son and daughter, hence the coins in Aarenis, the nata and nis (NEES).
Comment by Steve F — January 8, 2012 @ 12:13 pm
If you’re going to put it on the website, what about recording sound files of yourself or chosen volunteers speaking the words? You could even do video, although I don’t know why you’d want to and .wav or .mp3 files would be smaller and use less bandwidth. That would solve the whole “rhymes with” vs. IPA problem.
Either way, with all the examples you’ve used you’ve said they’re pronounced the way I’ve always heard them in my head so yay for me I guess.
Comment by elizabeth — January 8, 2012 @ 10:20 pm
My voice coach is making me learn IPA. I think I’ll make the rest of you learn IPA, so you can suffer along with me (that’s JOKE!)
But seriously–I have no time to worry about a pronunciation guide right now. Please, everyone, hold off on suggestions for what else I can do until I’m not staying up after midnight every night writing the books!
Comment by Susan R — March 3, 2012 @ 7:30 am
THe word I really have trouble with is ‘iynisin’. Is it EYE-nigh-sin? or IN-nyigh-sin, or … or …? I pronounce it differently every time I see it.
Comment by elizabeth — March 3, 2012 @ 7:47 am
Susan R: It is tricky isn’t it? It’s actually four syllables, with the second one much briefer and softer and the main accent on the third (NEE). EE-eh-NEE-sin or EE-yeh-NEE-sin. If the “eh” goes to “uh” (it does about half the time I say it) that’s OK. If the first two elide into each other and you get Ee-NEE-sin that’s not perfect but understandable.